Sexuality, with a side of WNGWJLEO. Come for the survey, stay for the pictures.

[sailorptah]

I keep being reminded of the bias in metafandom. I don't mean that the maintainers are biased in choosing entries; the selection seems comfortably neutral on controversial issues, and comfortably correct on obvious ones (for instance, it takes for granted that homosexuality is okay).

Rather, the bias is towards how much the authors care about the issues. And it's unavoidable: the people who don't care aren't writing journal entries about their lack of caring, so there's no way to represent them.

I adore metafandom. I adore thoughtful fannish discussion. But then I go and say something analytical in the comments of a fic, and it turns out that the author isn't interested in analysis, and kinda resents me for bringing it up.

My horoscope today says "It's time to share your thoughts with the outside world and form alliances with people who have an interest in what you are doing."

So here are my thoughts on sexuality.




Last week I went to see FLUID, a one-woman show in which performer Erika Kate MacDonald alternately sends up, plays up, and plays with ideas about bisexuality. She switched between outfits and characters and attitudes, but she was basically herself when she described being asked "So, do you like men and women equally, or one more than the other, or what?"

One day she sat down to try to answer the question, setting it up thus:

GIVEN:
--society wants to define everyone as (1) heterosexual or (2) homosexual;
--society wants to define everyone as (1) male or (2) female;
--I identify as female;
--I have relationships with both men and women;

HOW GAY AM I?

And then she broke out the charts.



A_XY is the number of relationships she's had with men; A_XX is the number with women; A_XX' is something like "Unconsummated Reciprocated Maybe Romantic Friendships"; and then she starts throwing in relationship length, quality of sex, and that's only the first page; there were five more of these things, with increasingly complicated graphs.



"And then," MacDonald told us, "I took all of that and plugged it into a very complicated formula, which you can find on our website, and I came up with a figure of . . . drumroll, please . . ."

(We obliged with a drumroll.)

". . . 90%!"

(Applause.)

Having made the calculation, she added, she walked out the door -- and met a guy [I don't remember his name; let's call him Fred] who became her first boyfriend since high school.

"So finally we were fooling around in bed, both naked, and I figured I had to tell him at this point, so I said, 'Listen, when I said I had dated women, I don't know if you really got that for the last seven years I've been primarily identifying as a lesbian.'

"And Fred said, '...no. I didn't get that.'

"'Yeah.'

"'But you've had sex with guys before, right?'

"'Nope.'

"And he said, '...do you plan to?'"

I could carry on for a long time about this; it was a great show, and you should totally book it if you can. It really drove home that efforts to pin down a person's sexuality into a neat little box are sometimes a lost cause. Sexuality can be fluid. (Thus the title of the show.)

On the other hand, it doesn't have to be.




The Confession is the autobiography of Jim McGreevey, former governor of New Jersey, who turned in his resignation a few years ago after it came out that he was having an affair with a male staffer.

He was on his second marriage at the time. Both of his wives are described in the book as wonderful women: funny, charming, intelligent, beautiful. With each of them, he hit it off instantly. With each of them, he had great chemistry. With each of them, he had a sexual relationship, at least at first. There was absolutely no reason he should not have had a long and happy marriage with either of them.

Except, y'know, that he's gay.

It's a heartbreaking read at times. When he knows there's no fault in his wife, and he really feels that marriage should be a commitment, and he loves her, and he thinks there must be something wrong with himself, and he wears himself out trying to make it work - it really, really sucks to be him.

Here's how much I'm not kidding about that: The level of fear and guilt and shame that this induced was so intense that it gave him symptoms of posttraumatic stress disorder.

For Erika, the gender of her partner doesn't make a big difference. If there is personal chemistry, the anatomy doesn't matter. For some people, the anatomy does matter. Some men are not wired to be with women. Forcing that is a bad, bad thing.




Even for gay people like McGreevey, sexuality is not completely solid. He had chemistry with these women; he enjoyed being with them; he found them attractive; in the beginning, he managed to have sex with them. But that doesn't make his sexuality fluid, either. It's more like rubber. It has some flexibility, but if you try to force it too far it will break.

This happens to straight people as well. It is perfectly plausible for someone to identify as straight and appreciate people of the same sex. The disparaging example is straight teenage girls who make out with each other at parties to attract the attention of straight boys, but straight people can genuinely experiment with same-sex relations.

Although they often tend to get forgotten, the same thing happens to asexual people, who may experiment with either or both sexes. (And this whole discussion skips out on the question of people of fluid or ambiguous gender. Another time.)

This kind of experimenting doesn't make a person's sexuality fluid when there's still something missing. I asked for thoughts on a similar situation at writing_sex a while back, and a straight female described sex with a woman as "pleasurable. Like getting a massage." She had an orgasm in the process, but had to fantasize about men to pull it off. There was something that the woman simply didn't do for her.

If you are a woman for whom sex with women can be, well, sexy, in its own right, then you're not straight. Nor are you asexual.

That doesn't necessarily make you gay, either. That's what Erika discovered when she realized, with Fred, that sex with a man could be sexy for her too.

Nor does it necessarily make you bi! Many people who are well outside the bounds of "straight", "gay", and "asexual" don't like the category "bisexual" because, as MacDonald put it, "what does the number two have to do with it?" In their case, sexuality isn't so much a matter of being attracted to "both sexes" as it is a matter of being attracted to "people, regardless of sex". She describes herself as "living in a fluid sexuality". A few other options: pansexual, queer, heteroflexible, just-plain-sexual, and that's just off the top of my head. If none of the existing categories, however open-ended, sound right to you, feel free to make up your own.

(If you're not sure how far your experimenting is going to go, you can identify as bicurious, or questioning, or, again, you can make up some new term that describes your particular flavor of "I'm still figuring it out".)

But there is a point at which you can rule out "straight". Where, exactly, is that point? I don't know. How do I know that the flexible-but-not-unlimited "straight" is an existing category at all? Because McGreevey fell outside of its limits, and gave himself a nervous breakdown trying to fit into them.

MacDonald was able to rule out "straight" and "a" early on. She just made the mistake of assuming that she couldn't rule out "gay" in the same way.




And yet, I absolutely loathe the fanfiction trope which goes by the unwieldy acronym WNGWJLEO: "We're Not Gay; We Just Love Each Other." The basic premise: Guy A and Guy B are in an exclusive, committed, romantic, sexual relationship, but it's not because they're gay.

"Whoa, whoa, whoa!" I hear you say. "Stop right there! Doesn't that go against everything you've been saying in this whole entire post?"

I know, I know. Bear with me!

Some of the discomfort comes from the lingering bad taste left by popular use of the phrase. When badly informed cultural conservatives discuss homosexuality, listen for them to say "I am not gay" when they mean "I'm straight".

The most obvious problem here is the misconception that "gay" and "straight" are the only two categories possible. But when these people use the phrase "not gay", they are using it defensively. Take this interview, in which Tucker Carlson, discussing the Larry Craig scandal, says "I'm the least anti-gay right-winger you'll ever meet, but I do think doing this in men's rooms appears to be common. It's totally wrong, and they should knock it off." So he is using "I'm not gay" to mean, not only "I'm straight", but "I don't have sex in public bathrooms."

And that's just -- no. Gah. I have no words to express how incredibly, incredibly stupid that is.

Hang on a minute.

*deep breath*

So. Yes. Bad taste. But that's not all.

If Guy A is going to spend the rest of his life living with and loving Guy B, he could be gay. He certainly doesn't have to be. But if he is going to say "I'm not gay," in a confident, self-assured, non-homophobic way, then he should be just as comfortable saying "but I'm not straight either."

And the guys in WNGWJLEO fics have a distressing tendency not to say that.

That doesn't mean Guy A has to say "I'm bi." He can identify as any of the categories I mentioned above, or any other category that I didn't mention, or he can decide to eschew labels altogether. That is perfectly fine.

But if he throws out every other label he can think of, starting with "gay", and then doesn't throw out "straight", that's not good.

The phrase "Guy A is straight, and only gay for Guy B" has been bandied around. And it's cute, and funny, but in all seriousness? By that logic, Erika MacDonald would have been "gay, and only straight for Fred." For that matter, it would make George W. Bush "asexual, and only straight for Laura." Not being straight doesn't mean that Guy A has discovered an attraction to all men; he may only like Guy B so far. But he is able to be attracted to men in a way that straight men aren't.

I think some writers have the notion that the love between Guy A and Guy B must be so strong that it can overcome any limit, including "Guy A is straight." And this seems like a wonderfully romantic notion, until you look at how it works in real life.

Dina Matos McGreevey, Jim McGreevey's second wife, wrote a memoir about how that marriage went. The five-star reviews are loaded with venom against McGreevey: he's "a liar", "a scumbag", "a control freak", "a sex addict", and on and on and on. She loved him; he loved her; but it was not enough to overcome the limit of "McGreevey is gay", and their attempt left this huge trail of anger, hurt, bitterness, self-reproach (on his part, for deceiving her; on her part, for deceiving herself), and assorted bad bad things in its wake.

If Guy A is going to spend the rest of his life in a committed romantic-sexual relationship with Guy B, then he may be gay or bi or any one of the hundreds (thousands?) (millions?) of possible varied and fluid sexualities that are found in the human race. But if he still considers himself to be straight and only straight, then either he is in denial or this relationship is going to end in heartbreak.




Okay, here's that survey I promised. Fandom is enough of a safe space that it gives people a chance explore the fluidity of their sexualities, which is great, because I would love a huge variety of answers. If you're not comfortable answering all the questions, just tell me as much as you want to.

(Again, this doesn't address people of fluid or ambiguous gender. If you are one such person, I'd still love to hear from you; either answer as best you can or ditch the questions and tell me whatever you feel like telling.)

1) What is your gender identity? How about your biological sex?

2) What's the farthest you've gone, romantically and/or sexually, with a member of the opposite sex (from the one with which you identify)?

3) What's the farthest you would be willing to go? ("I know I would do P, I think I would do Q, and I'm not sure if I would do R" is perfectly acceptable. So is "I don't know.")

4) What's the farthest you've gone with a member of the same sex?

5) What's the farthest you would be willing to go? (Again, uncertainty is welcome.)

6) Say there's a gun to your head, and you're told to put a one-word label on your sexuality. What is it? ("I guess I would just have to get shot" is not an acceptable answer; it's a cop-out. Something like "questioning" is fine.)

7) And now the gun's gone. Would you still use that label? Would you add a caveat, an addendum, a word of explanation? Would you ditch the label altogether?

8) Anything else interesting that you want to add?




My answers:
1) Female; female.

2) Had an online boyfriend for more than a year. Was head-over heels in love; was able to ignore the lack of lust because of the distance. There was one instance of cyber-feeling-up that I initiated. That's about it. I read slash, but when it breaks into NC-17 territory I scroll down.
3) I wouldn't even go that far again. The thought of kissing a guy on the lips kinda freaks me out. I love the deep, trusting, close friendships I've had with some guys, but they wouldn't get romantic.

4) Making out, and what I guess you would call heavy petting (clothed, but just barely). Loved her too; was more guarded about it, but still crushed when we broke up.
5) Sex, please. I can't picture myself doing anything particularly kinky, but then again I have no one to experiment with. And I would be totally fine with hot vanilla sex. And I want to get married to a woman I love and have the whole family show up to our fifty-year wedding anniversary, the way we did with my great-aunt a few years ago. (...you know, I think I'm pretty Zen about this, and then I start tearing up as I type it. I really, really want this.)

6) "Gay."
7) "Gay, but I can still appreciate hot guys. Jon Stewart? Yum."

8) I get more romantically disposed towards guys about one day a month. From the timing, I think it's the night of the full moon when I'm ovulating, which would make biological sense, although it's still really freakin' weird. (It's not enough to lead me into straight sex, but the aforementioned cyber-feeling-up incident occurred during this time. Has anyone else experienced something like this? I've never heard of or read about anything like it, but I can't be the only were-hetero out there, can I?)

Now that I think about it, maybe the only reason I typed this all up was so there would be context for the were-hetero question.


[ETA: I've read every reply, and will read yours if you leave one now, but it's been long enough that I've stopped responding. If I missed yours, my apologies.]

Comments

[From: vulgarweed.livejournal.com]

Were-hetero! AHAHAHAH!

OK, I'll play:

1) female; female.

2) Romantically: Er...living together for a number of years (a couple of different LTRs involved here; have been engaged twice but never married. I would marry a man if the right one came along and we both wanted to.
(3)Sexually: Er...there isn't much left I haven't done....*think* Fisting! I've never done that! I think I would be willing to try it (as the top, preferably).

4) Romantically: A 20-year-entity that over the years has sometimes been sexual and sometimes not. I don't know if I'd marry a woman. Probably so, if it was polyamorous (as this entity definitely is). I enjoy sex with women, but I couldn't promise to never have sex with a man again - male pheromones just work on me too hard. I dig the sound of their voices and they way they smell and the hair on their chests. It's more visceral.
5) Sexually. Again, not all that much left I haven't done. But if someone can come up with something new, I'd sure be grateful! :D

6) Heteroflexible.
7) Heteroflexible and polyamorous (I think this goes into question 8 territory too:) over the years, I've found myself in such a sizable number of mixed-gender threesomes (and a few times, more than three), I have to conclude this is not an "experiment" or a "kink" or something that happens on a dare or a performance for someone else's benefit but a consistent, important part of my sexuality. Also, I don't get why anyone would want strict monogamy. Oh, when people tell me why they do, I understand it intellectually and respect it. But personally, the desire for that just rings no emotional bells, and I can't relate to it on a personal level at all.

[From: sailorptah.livejournal.com]

Ooh. I love your use of the word "entity".

I enjoy sex with women, but I couldn't promise to never have sex with a man again - male pheromones just work on me too hard.

Now there's an interesting combination. The "I wouldn't be happy in the long term without straight sex" element of straightness, but a lot more wiggle room than conventional heterosexuality. I didn't really have a good mental image of "heteroflexibility" before, but this makes a lot of sense.

I can be a hopeless romantic, so I grok monogamy; the idea of having a One True Love warms my heart. On the other hand, polygamy makes a lot of sense to me too. (I don't know if I'd be very good at it - I get jealous easily - but I'm single right now, so the question is kind of academic.)

I don't know if you've ever seen Desperate Housewives; I watch it with my mom, and at some point last season Susan was trying to choose between marrying Ian and marrying Mike, and I said "polyamory is the way to go!", and my poor mother just didn't get it at all. I don't know if she understands it intellectually, but I think she's the opposite of you on the emotional-bells scale.

[From: beccastareyes.livejournal.com]

1) What is your gender identity? How about your biological sex?
I'm biologically female. As for my gender identity, I don't know. Not male? I've fit mostly comfortably into 'female', but there's a part of me that genuinely enjoys playing with gender, all while not seeing it as very important, really, outside of the social context. (Seriously, The Left Hand of Darkness had me horribly confused, since I didn't get why the narrator couldn't seem to deal with the fact he was on a planet without gender) So that suggests genderqueerness to me, though I am crap with labels.

2-5) I've never done more than kissed someone. I've never had a girlfriend -- the kissing was mostly because our anime club treasurer used to kiss everyone who donated more than pocket change. I only had one boyfriend, and that was one of the most awkward experiences of my life. Most of my crushes have been female (or genderqueer but biologically female), and I tend to see myself with a woman in the future. Observations from sex scenes in books suggest that I'll react to thing regardless of gender.

6) Questioning.

7) Heck, yeah. Though 'crap with labels' is also on there.

8) I read somewhere that straight women's tastes in men changed depending on the time of the month -- they sway for men who look more masculine when they are ovulating and more bishounen when they aren't.

[From: sailorptah.livejournal.com]

I play with gender a little bit. But the Alliance (queer-and-ally student group) did a drag show last year, and I as one of the judges got to come in drag, and thus I discovered that I am incredibly uncomfortable presenting as male. So apparently my gender identity is pretty solid.

I still think genderqueerness and/or androgyny is really hot on other people, though. (See: Integra.)

...Not to screw with your concept of sexuality any more than it already is, but one of the most awkward experiences of my life was my second girlfriend. We were (and still are) good friends, but there wasn't that spark, and we shouldn't have tried to manufacture it. If I hadn't had such a great experience with my first girlfriend, it would have thrown me back into "questioning" territory. (Not that this necessarily has anything to do with your situation. Another of my Most Awkward Experiences was turning down a guy whom I would have dated in an instant if I weren't gay; and this was before I had come out to anyone, so I couldn't explain to him why I wasn't attracted to him. Wasn't great for his self-esteem, I imagine. We're still friends too, though.)

You know, I remember reading about that study now. Women seem to gravitate more towards tough-looking guys when they're ovulating and nurturing-looking guys the rest of the time. So, yay, biological precedent! ... sorta!

[From: queer-theory.livejournal.com]

1) Female, Female

2) I dated a boy for two weeks during my freshman year of high school. When I was in my early 20s, I was in a relationship with a woman who was also in a relationship with a man, and he sexually assaulted me. A year later, I had sex with a close male friend in an attempt to... I don't know... make myself comfortable with men again. Not comfortable in a sexual way, but comfortable in a way that made me less afraid of them.

3) I cuddle with male friends. That's about all I'll consider ever doing again. Granted, that could change if I ever meet John Oliver. :-P

4) Sex... Fairly vanilla, but fairly awesome sex.

5) More of the same, please. I'm not opposed to kinky things and would need to discuss them with whoever I'm with, but I'm also personally content with a life of vanilla (but awesome) sex.

6) Queer... Which is to say gay. I prefer the word Queer as it sort of encompasses, for me, my answer to the next question.

7) Gay, but I'd go straight for John Oliver or Louis Theroux, if they are interested.

8) John Oliver is a God of sex. I'm convinced of this, and I've never even met the man. John Oliver for the sexual win.

[From: sailorptah.livejournal.com]

A year later, I had sex with a close male friend in an attempt to... I don't know... make myself comfortable with men again.

Well, that's one strategy for confronting your fears, I guess. Can I ask how it went? (I mean, I don't need details, but did it work?)

Oh, good, someone else vanilla =D

I'm a big fan of the word queer in general. It's nice and flexible =D

You know, for a long time I said things like "I would go straight for Jon Stewart" in a semi-serious fashion (if he weren't married, and if we were closer in age, and so on). And then I met the guy after a performance (not TDS, but a live standup show). And my hormones did nothing. It was really a shock, because they definitely do things when he's on TV or when I'm reading fic, but in person I was kind of bowled over with "oh, he's male."

On the plus side, if I hadn't been secure in my homosexuality before then, I sure am now =P

[From: serindrana.livejournal.com]

Potentially more than you wanted to know about the girl you met in middle school, but! I've been going through a lot of finding myself in this realm lately, so it'll be fun to answer :D (Plus your essay/post was awesome. <3)

1) Female; female.

2) French kissing. This mostly has to do with the fact that I've only had one offline relationship with a guy, and this was when I was 15. It was french-kissing without any groping, for those who want to know.

3) Oh, this is complicated. It's easy to say "What wouldn't I do?" but that's not quite right. I draw the line pretty much at anything past light bondage, but up until that point, I'm good. Generic (though somewhat kinky) sex things, with a side of submission, thank-you-very-much.

4) Clothed grinding. Oddly enough, we didn't even kiss - it was a very strange one-night thing. I did kiss a girl recently, though, but I've never french-kissed a girl.

5) Cuddling is about it, and cuddling in the platonic sense of the word. I've given relationships with wonderful girls a go a few times now, but it doesn't do anything for me sexually. And as I identify as a fairly sexual person, that's a problem.

6) Straight.

7) I'd stick with "straight" but I'd add that while women don't do anything particular for me, I still think quite a few of them are gorgeous and have no mental issue with the concept of dating one. I just can't put it into practice.

8) I went through a long period just assuming I was at least somewhat attracted to girls, pretty much on the basis of "Why shouldn't I be?" I'm mentally okay with the concept, I find women beautiful, and I thought that that should be enough. After a few relationships, though, I've had to re-evaluate. What my logical mind says and what my body and instincts do are completely separate in this field - I'm pretty damn straight, all in all.

But I will add that it's a very, very strange feeling to feel... guilty when you have an "Oh my god - I'm STRAIGHT," moment. It's taken a while to get over it, too.


... Yay, tl;dr. XD

[From: sailorptah.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I may be more fascinated when people I know start analyzing themselves. Especially if I learn new things about them. (Too much detail and it would get creepy, but, well, it would do that anyway, no?)

I will add that it's a very, very strange feeling to feel... guilty when you have an "Oh my god - I'm STRAIGHT," moment.

Hee!

I've been in an analagous situation. I was one of the judges at the Alliance drag show last year, which meant I had to show up in drag; I have always found androgyny hot, and had done some playing with gender identity that I quite liked (wore a tux jacket and corsage to prom, and for the drag show I bound my breasts with an Ace bandage, which I would gladly do again), I realized that I was really, really uncomfortable with presenting as a man.

So, no matter how much I mess with gender identity in theory, in practice I was hit with "dear FSM, I'm a woman!"

I still think androgyny is really, really hot, but I guess it'll have to be limited to other people =)

[From: foureyedsnail.livejournal.com]

[When I get a moment, I will read all of this lovely post, but as I am slightly pressed I shall go YAY SURVEY and skip promptly to that. ;D]


1) I am female, and I identify as primarily a lesbian.

2) I've gone nowhere. I have, currently, a pretty serious crush on a boy named Dan that is confusing the shit out of me. I have been pretty close with boys in what is sort of a platonic way here at school--we're always doing stuff like dogpiles and showering wars and tackle-hugs and that general kind of stuff. I sit on a lot of laps and hug people with varying degrees of force. I play with Dan's hair (he protests) and steal half of his chair when he plays video games and sit next to him while he plays the piano, that's about it. In first term, before I'd come to realize that yes, I had a crush on him, I spent a lot of time in his room and occasionally fell asleep on top of him (or vice versa) while doing physics or whatever.

3) I know what I'd do with Dan--who is, to be fair, effeminate enough that he is as widely called "a girl" as I am called "not a girl." Any other boy, I really like hugging, but only when I initiate it; if they're too...I dunno, into it, I feel weird. Which is strange. Residual awkwardness, anyway. With boys I like--now that apparently I can like boys, too--I'd definitely be into cuddling, to kissing, and probably to sex. Being kissed sounds really really weird, though, I don't know if I'd like that. I'm not sure. I'd have to play it by ear. Though to be fair, Dan is the first boy I've come across that I'd say yes to any of this with.

4) Also nowhere. Girly hugging and suchlike. I'm pretty close to my roommate, and there's ticklefights, and I've one-manned a couple of women in the showering war (which basically consists of picking them up). Other than that, nothing.

5) Same as above, only I can think of a lot more candidates. I've never tried, so I can't be certain, but I think I'd definitely like some kink. I'd like to try some mild D/s, because I'm pretty sure I'm a sub--though I've some switch tendencies. I like mock-wrestling and such, to the point of actual pain and bruises, especially with the couple people I actually have chemistry with. It makes me especially happy that Dan, who has a ridiculously strong grip because he plays piano, doesn't always know his own strength. I hardly ever bruise visibly. I'd like to.

So yeah, I'm pretty subby, I guess. :P

6) Dyke.

7) I hate the word lesbian, actually; people always question the word "gay," and here I can get away with dyke in casual conversation. :D

8) Don't think I'm a were-hetero, no. *g* Though I'm more hetero than I previously imagined. :O Hey! If the boy I like sets off my bisexual friend's gaydar, that means I'm still queerer than a 3-dollar bill, right?

[From: sailorptah.livejournal.com]

For the first question, just to clarify: you're biologically female, and identify as female?

I'm intrigued by the way dominance plays into this. I feel like I'd like to "wear the pants", if you will, in a relationship. With the online boyfriend I mentioned, he had a romantic (in the Tom Sawyer sense) streak that led to him telling me his troubles and letting me support him, and I quite liked that; but when he started getting more independent I found myself actually getting uncomfortable (and then berating myself for it, because I wouldn't be a good supportive girlfriend if I wanted to keep him dependent, would I?).

I kinda want to be (a female version of) the strong and bright guy who always has noble intentions but can be a little clueless, and have a sensitive girlfriend who understands what I mean, and relies on me for support in a lot of ways but gives me emotional support when I need it. That's my mental fantasy scenario.

...I also enjoy reading D/s when it's M/m, but a male Dom with a female sub makes me vaguely uncomfortable. Which is probably related.

Yeah, you definitely sound subby =3 As I said, me likey the D/s, but it's the power dynamics that get me off; physical pain doesn't do it for me at all. (And I don't think I'd be good on either side as an actual participant.)

I get a little uncomfortable with "lesbian", at least as applied to myself, because it sounds so fancy, and because the male equivalent ("uranian") has dropped out of use altogether (I only know it thanks to Jeeves & Wooster fic), so it dosn't seem fair.

When I think about "dyke", I get a mental image of a more butch gay woman. Is that how you're using it, or just as a less annoying equivalent of "lesbian"?

I think it's pretty clear that you're queer. But when it comes to the subcategory of "generally attracted to women but have a very confusing thing for this girly dude I know, whom I would like to bruise me but not kiss me." I'm pretty sure there isn't a word for that one yet =3

[From: solar-cat.livejournal.com]

*uses her only-occasionally-appropriate icon*

1) Er... Female-ish? I don't know if I have a word. Gender-queer always seemed off, to me. There are time when I feel very female. And times when I don't. Confused? Is "confused" an option? Biologically female, though.

2) "All the way", I guess. Mostly vanilla, with a bit of light bondage tossed in for kicks. No anal. (It feels really sort of odd to be typing this up for public consumption. :\ )

3) I'd say I'm up for anything, provided that the person and the situation are right. There's got to be a lot of trust there, for me. Without the trust, they'd be lucky to get my SOCKS off.

4) Mostly-naked heavy petting/fooling around. (Might have gone further, but there was a standing "underwear remains on" rule, and she technically had a boyfriend at the time, who didn't mind her messing around with girls - no guys - as long as it didn't go to full-blown sex. ...Nice arrangement, really, but too bad it couldn't go further.)

5) Same as the other answer. I won't rule anything out, because it depends so much on the person and the situation.

6) Probably bisexual.

7) Maybe? I kinda have difficulty pinning a label on myself at all. I suppose "queer" works to a certain extent, much like "bi" works to a certain extent, but nothing seems exactly adequate. I think sexuality is very individual, and unfortunately, there just aren't enough labels for everyone to have one, so you just have to get as close as you can, I guess.

8) Like I said, sex for me is very much about the person and the level of trust. I broke up with my one ex-boyfriend because he wasn't being honest with me. He was lying, and I found out about it because I looked him up on LJ. Whether he was cheating or not wasn't really the issue, it was that he lied about some fundamental things. On the other hand, I've been in successful relationships with people who were already in relationships. In those cases, though, their existing partners were aware of and okay with the relationship, and I was aware of and okay with them. Sex is just messy and complicated and generally hard to shove in a box and stick a label on. Worth it though. Definitely worth it. ^_____________^

(And I don't think you're the only one who has that kind of swing. I know there are times when I'm half-likely to answer the gun question "lesbian" rather than "bi"; I think it's like you said earlier - it's fluid. The answer now could be different next week. It's all about going with the flow. ;) )

[From: sailorptah.livejournal.com]

"Confused" is always an option =)

Think of it this way: it's public consumption in a place where you're surrounded by people who have gone farther =)

Doesn't seem like your sexuality has many boundaries at all, except the need for trust, so yeah, that would make it awfully hard to find a label. Trustisexual?

[From: lordessrenegade.livejournal.com]

Oooh, thinky thoughts! *admires* (Also, those charts will never not crack me up. Ditto for were-hetero, I think.)

1) female, and female.

2) Romantically: a handful of short-term relationships and non-romantic hookups, one long term relationship (for values of long term being "a large chunk of high school"), then a multi-year not-quite-romantic thing with a friend. Sexually: pretty much everything, though nothing too kinky.

3) Hypothetically, in either the case of being single again or a threesome situation, I would totally be interested in having sex with guys.

4) Romantically: currently in a relationship that has lasted nine months, which is my only romantic involvement with a woman. Sexually: a handful of casual makeouts, one instance of "above-the-waist lesbianism," and a whole lot of sex with one person.

5) Sexually: I have lines, but not many of them. Romantically: honestly, I think I can only see myself settling down with a woman at this point. (probably mostly because I am a hopeless schmoop who can't picture ending up with anyone but my girlfriend) Were I to be single again and meet the right guy, that may change? But that's where I am right now.

6) Bi.

7) I don't like the term bi, really, but I haven't found one I like better. I don't feel that I'm politically aware enough to call myself queer, and heteroflexible implies that I lean more towards guys. So. Bi it is, until someone comes up with something better.

[From: sailorptah.livejournal.com]

Glad you enjoy them! And your icon is well chosen =)

I know "queer" is the common academic term (thus "queer studies"), but I've never heard of it being used to imply political awareness. I use it to refer, very broadly, to anyone who isn't just plain straight. Maybe it ended up getting a political connotation because it's the politically aware people who use it? Now I want to do a poll just to find out how many people think of it that way.

...what about "homoflexible"? If you feel like you lean more towards women, could that work? Of course, if that could change depending on the gender of your partner, it's back to fluidity again. (Or you could make up a new word. I was going to be all proud of "homoflexible", but it's in UrbanDictionary.com already. Sigh.)

[From: flakygoddess.livejournal.com]

1) Female; female.

2) Sex.

3) Um...you can't go any farther, but no one can have my kidneys, just in case.

4) Sex.

5) See #3

6) Apathetic.

7) Apathetic in a slutty way.

8) Has nothing to do with your survey, but I think I missed something in your mentioning of Tucker re: the Larry Craig story. I remember the interview in question, and what I remember is Tucker merely saying that seedy bathroom sex isn't cool with him, gay or straight (and then him mentioning he'd been accosted in a bathroom before when in high school, and that it upset him very much). Bear in mind that I'm on painkillers, but did I miss something in the clip and the point you were trying to prove?

[From: sailorptah.livejournal.com]

I like your answers, and I cannot get enough of your icon.

There's a link up there to a transcript of the Tucker interview, so you can reread it. A choice quote "I'm not anti-gay in the slightest, but that's really common, and the gay rights groups ought to disavow that kind of crap because, you know, that actually does bother people who didn't ask for being bothered."

The faulty assumptions just pile on: (1) lots of gay people (specifically, gay men) have sex in public bathrooms; (2) gay rights groups have the responsibility to disavow this (which means he doesn't think it's a "gay or straight" problem); (3) gay rights groups don't realize that this bothers straight people. And these kinds of misconceptions make my skin crawl.

[From: bkwyrm.livejournal.com]

Oooh, I'll play.

1) Female; female

2) Intercourse.

3) See above.

4) A kiss.

5) I have no idea. But see the answer below.

6) Monogamous.

7) Same answer!

8) Anything else interesting that you want to add?

I've been with my now-husband for seventeen years. Married for almost ten of those years. I identify as straight, because I've never been other than straight - I was an 18 year old college sophomore when I met him and started dating him, so I never explored the feelings I had toward women. And honestly, I've nver been interested in exploring those feelings because despite society telling me that he'd bore me, I'd bore him, we'd cheat on each other and get divorced, we're very happy together.
Plus, I have a nine month old kid. My sexual orientation right now is "What, tonight? I'm tired!"

[From: sailorptah.livejournal.com]

*holds up spectacles* Why, it's a conventional vanilla heterosexual married woman with child! So they do exist!

My sexual orientation right now is "What, tonight? I'm tired!"

XD

And more power to you.

[From: bellehiver.livejournal.com]

1) What is your gender identity? How about your biological sex?

Female; female

2) What's the farthest you've gone, romantically and/or sexually, with a member of the opposite sex (from the one with which you identify)?

I've been married, so, "all the way" sexually. I thought at the time that I was in love with him, but its been proven to me since that I'd only scratched the surface of emotions.

3) What's the farthest you would be willing to go? ("I know I would do P, I think I would do Q, and I'm not sure if I would do R" is perfectly acceptable. So is "I don't know.")

I could probably kiss a guy, if I really liked his personality, but I don't see myself ever having sex with guys again.

4) What's the farthest you've gone with a member of the same sex?

commited relationship; oral sex, manual sex/"mutual masturbation"

5) What's the farthest you would be willing to go? (Again, uncertainty is welcome.)

more of the above. maybe some bondage... no S&M

6) Say there's a gun to your head, and you're told to put a one-word label on your sexuality. What is it? ("I guess I would just have to get shot" is not an acceptable answer; it's a cop-out. Something like "questioning" is fine.)

gay

7) And now the gun's gone. Would you still use that label? Would you add a caveat, an addendum, a word of explanation? Would you ditch the label altogether?

I would, yeah. I'm a big homo :P

8) Anything else interesting that you want to add?

there was something brought up on The L Word recently, about a theory where someone proposed some people aren't necessarily attracted to one gender or another, but are just attracted to their same sex/same sex relationships. It was brought up because the person was an ftm transguy, who used to be a lesbian, and found himself kind of attracted to a gay guy that was into him. And I think that might be true for me, because I really think that if I were a man, I would still be gay, no matter how much I love women (and I do. a LOT.), not even mentioning that man on man anything gives me the same fun feelings that I get from girls I'm interested in.

Also, my ascent into lesbianism was definitely a gradual one. I'm convinced that as a child/preteen/etc I was asexual, until I was about 14 or so, when I realized I liked girls, therein figuring I must be bisexual. And then I got married when I was 20, and two years of being with a man made me realize that I really didn't like dating them, and I came out as a lesbian at the age of 23. Two years later and I'm still pretty damn sure this is me.

[From: rivers-bend.livejournal.com]

hi, sorry to be nosy, but so much yes to:
because I really think that if I were a man, I would still be gay, no matter how much I love women (and I do. a LOT.), not even mentioning that man on man anything gives me the same fun feelings that I get from girls I'm interested in.

I totally agree. to me, part of it is that I feel like default normal is same sex attraction. (not like, intellectually feel, just gut feeling) I find it strange that a man would be attracted to women or a woman to men, beyond aesthetic considerations.

My ex is trans, and though he's mostly asexual, I do think now he's transitioned he's more attracted to men, though he was always only attracted to women before the T.

I love women's bodies, and sex with them, and, god, just YES, but if I had a cock? I would want cock. Despite the fact that they pretty much disgust me now.

[goes back to lurking]

[From: rosehiptea.livejournal.com]

I know I'm not the age group you're looking for here, but I can never resist a good survey, so:

1) What is your gender identity? How about your biological sex? female, female

2) What's the farthest you've gone, romantically and/or sexually, with a member of the opposite sex (from the one with which you identify)?

married, in love, had sex

3) What's the farthest you would be willing to go? ("I know I would do P, I think I would do Q, and I'm not sure if I would do R" is perfectly acceptable. So is "I don't know.")

Already did just about all of it? Not into extreme kink but... yeah. I'd have sex with a man again if the chance presented itself.

4) What's the farthest you've gone with a member of the same sex?

Brief kissing. Cybersex, since we seem to be counting that.

5) What's the farthest you would be willing to go? (Again, uncertainty is welcome.)

Sex.

6) Say there's a gun to your head, and you're told to put a one-word label on your sexuality. What is it? ("I guess I would just have to get shot" is not an acceptable answer; it's a cop-out. Something like "questioning" is fine.)

Questioning

7) And now the gun's gone. Would you still use that label? Would you add a caveat, an addendum, a word of explanation? Would you ditch the label altogether?

If I didn't need to have one word, I'd go with something like "Straight, but often confused about it, but mostly due to fantasies about fictional characters so that makes no damn sense.

8) Anything else interesting that you want to add?

I go back and forth with how I feel about this, from "Well, yeah, I'm straight, whatever" to "I really don't think I'm straight but since I've never had a real relationship with a woman I'm just going to say I am" to "I'm bi but I'm never going to act on it." (Or ocassionally "Maybe I'm actually a lesbian because I never actually enjoyed sex with men very much." Which I know doesn't make someone a lesbian, I'm just giving my honest thoughts.)

I actually like talking about this stuff, but I get so much "Oh honey, you don't need a label. ^_^" that I usually don't bother.

As for the original question about fanfic... I think some author's don't want to deal with the question of their characters wanting an identity. Plus they want to get away from the trope that a male character who falls in love with another man absolutely must be gay and then you have to explain the relationships he's had with women as being mistakes or relationships he wasn't really into. Which can, as you point out, happen in real life, but with a few characters that might not be going to work very well as an explanation. That said, there are better ways to cover that than WNGWJLEO. But I don't write much m/m anyway, or use "we're not gay" in f/f that I can remember. (Well, I had a character say she was straight but then laugh because she realized she was about to have sex with a woman.)

I admit I don't usually deal with how the characters identify themselves, because I tend to write ficlets and I don't always write about societies that deal with sexuality and identification the way ours does. But... I don't go with "I'm straight," because I don't see any reason to.

Sorry for going on and on... but all this made me think, and not only about were-heteros, though it's a lovely word.

[From: sailorptah.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'm not looking for a particular age group! So it's great to hear from you =D

I think I follow your confusion. It makes sense. I know I went through a stage of "Am I straight? But I have fantasies about women. Am I gay? But I have a boyfriend, and I love him, so I can't be, right? Am I bi? But I don't feel all that attracted to men in general...."

(I did a lot of fantasy comparison: imagining a sexy Alucard, then a sexy Integra, and trying to gauge the relative turn-on factor. Which, now that I think about it, couldn't have worked for me; I appreciate the sexiness of fictional men, and men who are on TV or have some other kind of distance from me - which included the online boyfriend. But I'm way too much of an introvert to have run similar tests with actual people.)

I love talking about this stuff, which leads to run-ins with people who say "My sexuality doesn't need a label!" and then think I'm trying to pin them down or pigeonhole them when I start exploring it. I understand that labels have limits, but at the same time they can be useful - and, y'know, interesting.

I think some authors don't want to deal with the question of their characters wanting an identity.

That would make sense if an author decided to just leave the question of labels out of the story altogether. So Bob falls in love with Jack, but never says he is/thinks of himself as/is referred to in the narrative as "not gay" or "gay" or "straight" or "bi" or "not straight" or "flexible" or anything at all.

Plus they want to get away from the trope that a male character who falls in love with another man absolutely must be gay and then you have to explain the relationships he's had with women as being mistakes or relationships he wasn't really into.

I understand the desire not to invalidate former relationships with women. I don't care for any kind of fic that puts the pairing together by erasing former pairings (especially when it involves character assassination for the poor ex).

But in this case, they can say Bob is "not gay" - as long as they turn around and say "and he's not straight, either." Because if "Bob is not gay" is a way of keeping his previous relationship with Jane valid, then "Bob is not straight" must also be used if Bob's relationship with Jack is going to be valid too.

I occasionally deal with identity in fic, but it's mostly tangential: someone will look at Bob's same-sex relationship and assume Bob is gay, and Bob will point out that he is bi (or whatever). I've never actually written about the kind of identity crisis that comes with "am I gay? am I straight? but I've done X with men, and Y with women, so what does that mean?"

If I ever do, though - which I'm sure I will eventually - all this material is going to be an incredible resource =D

[From: darkecology.livejournal.com]

1) What is your gender identity? How about your biological sex?

Wow, so I guess I mess up the survey at the get-go. I am not gender identified and have always been that way. I am biologically female. I don't really know how to explain the non-identity (since to me it feels normal), but I really don't feel either male or female - and the concepts of "male" and "female" feel very foreign to me.

2) What's the farthest you've gone, romantically and/or sexually, with a member of the opposite sex (from the one with which you identify)?

Since I'm unidentified, I'll answer for both...I've been in a long-term sexual relationship with a man, and I was essentially married to a woman for the better part of a decade.

3) What's the farthest you would be willing to go? ("I know I would do P, I think I would do Q, and I'm not sure if I would do R" is perfectly acceptable. So is "I don't know.")

I don't have any barriers with either sex, other than my personal squicks. Sex, marriage, whatever, but I guess I won't be engaging in scat play with either sex.

4) What's the farthest you've gone with a member of the same sex?

See question 2.

5) What's the farthest you would be willing to go? (Again, uncertainty is welcome.)

See question 3.

6) Say there's a gun to your head, and you're told to put a one-word label on your sexuality. What is it? ("I guess I would just have to get shot" is not an acceptable answer; it's a cop-out. Something like "questioning" is fine.)

Pansexual.

7) And now the gun's gone. Would you still use that label? Would you add a caveat, an addendum, a word of explanation? Would you ditch the label altogether?

Yes, since I care about other people's genders about as much as I care about my own. Male, female, transsexual, transgendered, whatever, as long as I am attracted to the person for their "inner-self" (man, that sounds cheesy). All types of people - regardless of gender - have attractive physical qualities. With me, attraction starts with my mind being attracted to the other person's.


8) Anything else interesting that you want to add?

My thoughts on yaoi gender and sex, I have shown you them. (Also, I would add - I doubt the validity of cyber relations - it's [to me] the equivalent of reading porn.)

[From: sailorptah.livejournal.com]

Ooh, gender-neutrality. Cool. I play with gender a bit, though my gender identity isn't fluid enough that I'm comfortable presenting as male. I'm comfortable presenting as female, but not particularly feminine, and androgyny has always fascinated me. So I can get the idea of not identifying with one gender at all.

With me, attraction starts with my mind being attracted to the other person's.

I'm like that too. The difference is that, with me, if the other person is male, the attraction doesn't go any farther than mental. (I don't know how I'd react to someone of ambiguous gender; I've never had the opportunity to find out. My instinct is to say that I would be turned off by any variation of penis, but I wouldn't swear to it.)

I doubt the validity of cyber relations - it's [to me] the equivalent of reading porn.

In my case, the "cyber relations" started with conversation, progressed to mutual attraction, and ended up with conversations that could get (very mildly) sexual, but tended to be just schmoopy. So it wasn't like two strangers typing sex scenes to each other; it was two people in a full-fledged long-distance relationship.

Can I ask what you think about phone sex? And does it make a difference if it's a person calling a phone sex hotline and paying, versus a person calling his/her faraway partner and dirty talk ensuing?

[From: aersi.livejournal.com]

Lol, I just did a survey similar to this in my Sexuality and Society class, actually. (Sociology majors have all the fun! ^_^ )

1) Female:Female

2) All the way, as the kids say.

3) Again, as much as possible.

4)Made out & felt up/been felt up.

5) Not even that far again. I did it to try it, but I didn't really enjoy it.

6) Straight.

7) Straight.

8) I've fooled around with a girl or two, but I really only find attraction to men. However, I can look at a woman and say, "wow, she's hot!" I do have a couple ladies I'd go gay, or at least interested for, but considering they're pen and ink I doubt that'll happen. I do think that one must be careful with labels though, and as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else, just do what makes you happy

[From: sailorptah.livejournal.com]

Ah, another just-plain-het person! I'm glad you still took the time to fill this out ^_^

...as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else, just do what makes you happy...

Hear hear.

I wouldn't want to use a label to pigeonhole someone, or to say "you can do this but cannot do this." But to disavow the idea of labels altogether ignores the fact that people are different, sexuality-wise. Labels are a way (or at least a starting point) to organize and make sense of those differences.

[From: stellar-dust.livejournal.com]

Okay, I'll bite. (Wow, you're getting a lot of answers, and your survey doesn't even have ticky boxes!)

1. Female; female.

2. I had a years-long relationship with a guy. And yeah, we had sex. (That's really the only relationship I've had that even counts as a relationship, so you can take the rest of my answers in that light!)

3. I'd probably try almost anything, as long as I felt comfortable! I'd have to see.

4. I french-kissed one of my best friends. At a party. We were drunk. I'd do it again sober, though!

5. See #3! (Although, hair in my mouth does the same thing to my spine as fingernails on a blackboard, so .. well, I'd have to see. *g*)

6. Apathetic. (But who's holding the gun? What's THEIR agenda here??)

7. Still apathetic, though I might elaborate and say I fall somewhere between "bi" and "straight." Defining or labeling my sexuality has never been that important to me, so I wouldn't particularly say I'm "questioning". "Bicurious" might be more accurate, but really, apathetic/zen is about right. IF I end up with someone, it'll probably be a man. I would not, however, be shocked if it were a woman, and I probably won't feel particularly driven to analyze it either way. It's love, right? Shouldn't that be enough of a label?

Of course, I've dated zero women and very few men (and yes, I'm 26..), so my thoughts could change if and when my experiences do. *shrug*

FWIW, fandom-wise I tend to be more attracted to male characters and celebrities, whereas in real life it's closer to even.

8. Interesting thoughts on WNGWJLEO! I - well, perhaps unsurprisingly considering the above - like to read about people who love each other. I don't really care what gender they are or whether they even have sex at all, and sometimes I'd rather they didn't. I don't really get enemy!pairings most of the time, either. (I've been told I have to give up my slash cred for all that, but whatever. *g*) So I don't have a problem with not-gay yet in-love. Of course, once sex enters into the picture, it's nice if the author deals with it in a way that's in-character. (It's all about characterization for me, really, heh.) Still, if there's a character who's identified as straight for his entire life but is as apathetic about sexuality as I am, I don't think finding One True Love in another man means he'd absolutely have to re-label himself. If he doesn't care about the label and his man doesn't care about the label, I don't think the label matters at all. Then again, if he's apathetic, he's shouldn't have a problem saying "not-straight" - but after a lifetime of saying "straight and don't care" the "don't care" part might be a roadblock to changing the "straight" part. Oh, who knows.

Of course, the stories you're referring to might not treat it that way; and also of course, it all really comes down to consistent characterization, and whether the author can get me to buy it for the duration of the story.

/end ramble. :D

Aside: Do you watch Boston Legal? I'm so in love with Alan and Denny. They're head-over-heels for each other - not gay - also not having sex (.. though if they'd only just give it a try ...) And they're both such bundles of issues, they give "Stephen" a run for his money.

[From: sailorptah.livejournal.com]

But who's holding the gun? What's THEIR agenda here??

Me; to make the point that I want a serious answer to the question =3

I asked a similar question in one of my high school classes; the subject wasn't sexuality, but I asked "if someone asked you to define/classify yourself in one word, what would it be?" I was torn between "humanist" and "humorist". The teacher, who grew up pre-feminism, said "woman". One student gave a nonanswer ("I would just walk away"). Which was fine, but it didn't tell me anything.

FWIW, fandom-wise I tend to be more attracted to male characters and celebrities, whereas in real life it's closer to even.

That may be related to the gender gap in well-developed characters. For instance, if you were attracted to every single TDS correspondent regardless of sex, it would lean towards male, even if you didn't necessarily.

I don't really get enemy!pairings most of the time, either.

Depends on the pairing. If they actually don't like each other, then it's hard to understand (unless there's a mind-games factor going on). On the other hand, "Stephen" treats Jon like an enemy, or at least a rival, quite a lot; but that's just one of his ways of coping with feelings that are actually much more complicated.

I don't have a problem with not-gay yet in-love.

Neither do I, as long as "not-straight" is a factor.

You don't have to pick a new label, just be willing to ditch the old one.

A certain level of caring, of gender mattering to attraction, is part of a straight identity, just as it is with a gay identity. A switch from "straight and apathetic" to "just plain apathetic" is fine, but there's no reason to cling to the straightness. (Assuming the character isn't homophobic, or held down by other issues.)

I don't watch Boston Legal, but I've heard things about that pairing. They're written in a Deep And Intimate Yet Platonic relationship, and those are valid too. Of course, unlike with real people, that can be changed with five minutes and a keyboard =3

[From: singer88.livejournal.com]

First off, this whole discussion is so delightfully CTY, which makes me happy. :-)

1) Male; Male

2) Feeling down with hands, feeling up with mouth.

3) Vaginal (or Anal) Sex

4) Oral Sex

5) Anal sex

6) Bisexual

7) Bisexual, but looking for a guy at the moment.

8) Maybe my initial comment should have gone here?

[From: sailorptah.livejournal.com]

Oh, good, the first guy. Thanks for dropping in!

I don't want to make a generalization just from one person, but you certainly haven't disrupted my impression that guys think/wonder/angst about this sort of thing a lot less =D

...oh, CTY, how I miss thee.

[From: wisdomeagle.livejournal.com]

1) Cisgendered female.

2) Like you, it happened only online. Confessed mutual affection and attraction. I considered us boyfriend and girlfriend for all of twenty-four hours before he ended things. (Maybe the idea of dating his lesbian bff was less appealing once it became a reality.)

3) I really don't know. I do know that he would have to be an extremely special guy.

4) Sexually, all the way (in whatever sense you want to take that. I've sampled nearly everything that doesn't involve toys, though.) Romantically, moved halfway across the country to live with my girlfriend/partner.

5) I can't think of a place I wouldn't go or something sexual I wouldn't be willing to try (minus some *very* extreme kink).

6) Lesbian.

7) I usually identify as lesbian. Sometimes I have identified as "sekritly bisexual." I like the word "queer." But I have the strongest affiliations with "lesbian."

8) Thinking about what I'd be willing to do with a guy is interesting. I'm not squicked by the idea of het sex, fantasize about it, am terribly attracted to fictional men on my TV set (Rupert Giles? Jethro Gibbs? Oh hai do me please) and some men in real life with similar attributes of dominance, age, and intelligence, but I have real difficulty imagining that moving from, well, fantasy and/or a really amazing evening to the idea of spending a life with someone. Socially, emotionally, romantically, I love women. I love my girlfriend who, you know, brought me breakfast in bed this morning and is so amazing and I can't believe how lucky I am to have her, and since I don't see us ending anytime soon, the question of what I'd do with guys is kind of moot.

But my Mysterious Male Creature (the boy reference in Q2)... I was in love with him. Part of me probably always will be. Which makes me think that yeah, for the right person I'd go straight.

[an addendum on kink, if you are not already sick of hearing all of fandom' TMI:

In my fantasy and fictional life -- the porn I read, the porn I write, the dynamics that attract me, both in fandom and in my meatspace attractions -- I'm pretty darn kinky with emphases on power differential marked by age difference and on physical pain. As I alluded to above, there tend to be more male characters/people who have the right dominance markers, especially in fiction, and I'm interested in reading about them topping both men and women, but probably especially women.

When there are female characters who fit the bill? I am totally, utterly completely gone for them. And again, am interested in reading them topping both men and women. And am also totally willing to twist characterization to make it fit my kink.

All of which is very interesting but sometimes feels like it has nothing to do with my real life. It's not going to happen with my girlfriend, and I'm perfectly comfortable with that. For people who know about the inner-life stuff, my real life probably sees incongruously vanilla, but this too suits me in really deep ways. I bring this up because... I think that kink (and the particular kinds of kink that hit me hardest) functions in an analogous way in my life that sexual orientation vis a vis gender does for other people. If asked about my kink orientation, I would probably ID as "kinkcurious."]

[From: sailorptah.livejournal.com]

I like the word "cisgendered". It deserves more usage. (Again, my chagrin that this post couldn't really address gender issues - but there's so much material to work with as-is!)

Sometimes I have identified as "sekritly bisexual." I like the word "queer."

XD

I like "queer" too. I use "gay" generally, but I consider myself "queer", in the same way that I refer to my race as "white", but see that as a subcategory of "human".

...if you are not already sick of hearing all of fandom's TMI...

If I didn't want it, I wouldn't have asked =3

I bring this up because... I think that kink (and the particular kinds of kink that hit me hardest) functions in an analogous way in my life that sexual orientation vis a vis gender does for other people. If asked about my kink orientation, I would probably ID as "kinkcurious."

Ooh. I think you're totally right.

It would be a lot harder to come up with any kind of scheme for kink identity because there is no analogy to the male/female differentiation (which, though anything but a perfect duality, at least gives us a framework to hang things on). Any object can be a fetish; any behavior can be sexualized; and the language has only scratched the surface of what it would need to do in order to categorize them.

That said, I like the idea that kink can be understood in that sort of way, and I think I too identify as kink-curious.

[From: mrs260.livejournal.com]

1) What is your gender identity? How about your biological sex?

Male; female with sex change.

2) What's the farthest you've gone, romantically and/or sexually, with a member of the opposite sex (from the one with which you identify)?

No romantic or sexual going at all.

3) What's the farthest you would be willing to go? ("I know I would do P, I think I would do Q, and I'm not sure if I would do R" is perfectly acceptable. So is "I don't know.")

Not willing to have any romantic or sexual contact with women.

4) What's the farthest you've gone with a member of the same sex?

Sex even by Bill Clinton's definition. :0)

5) What's the farthest you would be willing to go? (Again, uncertainty is welcome.)

More sex. Kissing would be welcome.

6) Say there's a gun to your head, and you're told to put a one-word label on your sexuality. What is it? ("I guess I would just have to get shot" is not an acceptable answer; it's a cop-out. Something like "questioning" is fine.)

Gay.

7) And now the gun's gone. Would you still use that label? Would you add a caveat, an addendum, a word of explanation? Would you ditch the label altogether?

Yes, would still use that label. Have added and would in the future add the caveat (to prospective sex partners) that my genitals are closer to female than male configuration.

8) Anything else interesting that you want to add?

Hmm. Nothing comes to mind.

[From: sailorptah.livejournal.com]

My impression is that being trans would lead to second-guessing of sexuality even in a person who wouldn't otherwise; but you seem to have sorted it out very nicely =)

Thanks for the input!

[From: fizzyblogic.livejournal.com]

I am totally a were-hetero too! *HIGH FIVE*

My answers:

1) bigendered (40% male, 60% female); female.

2) heavy petting/groping, though I wasn't attracted to him and was acting out of grief. I just wanted comfort.

3) it's ... complicated, because my partner's answer to #1 would be 'male; female', and I see him completely as a guy. Emotionally I am willing to give my all to a guy; physically ... I do crush on guys, but it's mostly platonic and when it comes down to it, anything more than making out and I'd get uncomfortable. I'm in a sort of a 'I'm Not Straight I Just Love A Dude' situation, because anything that is attached to my partner is alright with me, but even another woman using a strap-on with me doesn't do it for me. (Why hello there tmi.)

4) sex! Light kinky stuff! Toys! TMI all over the place \o/

5) anything but large amounts of kink; light restraints are my limit, pretty much. Sex with girls = A+

6) bisexual.

7) I guess so? Sometimes I identify as male lesbian, sometimes as visually/emotionally bisexual but sexually lesbian, sometimes I just give up and say I'm Jj, nice to meet you.

8) of all the things I have identified as -- from full-out lesbian to asexual to gay transgendered dude and back to just plain old bi, depending on where I was in my path to Find Myself And Gain Knowledge -- I have never once identified as straight. And I only just noticed, so thanks for this post :D

eta - after reading my answers over, I feel I should clarify something: when asked about the opposite sex, I answered for male-bodied persons regardless of gender, and for same-sex I answered for female-bodied persons regardless of gender. My boyfriend is a dude, and I emotionally and intellectually and sexually see him as male, but when faced with checkboxes based on sex rather than gender, I'll class the sex we have as lesbian sex, even though it feels like m/m or m/f (with me as the f) sex, because of the requisite body parts. I hope that makes sense!

[From: sailorptah.livejournal.com]

*high-fives back!*

Wow. Your identity, and that of your partner, and the intersection of the two, is a lot more complicated than anything I've ever experienced. I'm pretty sure I got it all, but still, that's absolutely crazy =D

I have never once identified as straight. And I only just noticed, so thanks for this post :D

My pleasure! This doesn't surprise me, though; any queer person, whether firmly gay or fluidly other, is at least going to figure out early on that they aren't straight. Because that's what society tells us we are, and we feel the wrongness of it even if we're not sure what "right" is.

[From: redfiona99.livejournal.com]

1) Female - mostly, kind of, not spectacularly comfortable, wish I could just label myself human. But born female.

2) I've sort of gone all the way with a man. Sort of due to failure in his fluid hydraulics.

3) I'm pretty much willing to try most things. I don't do anal sex. I don't find it pleasurable hence it's kind of pointless for me.

4) Nowhere. I am a failed bisexual.

5) Willing to try all the things I've heard of, and probably with more fervour than with men.

6) Bi.

7) Bi but I suck at the girl end of this despite the fact that I'm reasonably sure I prefer women slightly.

8) Much like MacDonald, I'm flexible, it's more a case of person than gender. That being said, I do wonder if some of this is down to my raging commitmentphobia.

[From: sailorptah.livejournal.com]

I'm flexible, it's more a case of person than gender.

I think it's always "a case of person". I mean, I'm not attracted to women based on their gender; I'm attracted to them based on their personalities. And I feel emotional attraction to men based on their personalities. It's just that, beyond that point, gender makes a difference to me.

I am a failed bisexual.

The game isn't over yet!

Good luck with that - and with commitments, if it turns out you do in fact want them ^_~

[From: mofic.livejournal.com]

1) What is your gender identity? How about your biological sex?
Female, female

2) What's the farthest you've gone, romantically and/or sexually, with a member of the opposite sex (from the one with which you identify)?

I had boyfriends in high school and the beginning of college. I fell in love. I had sex. I enjoyed sex with them.

3) What's the farthest you would be willing to go? ("I know I would do P, I think I would do Q, and I'm not sure if I would do R" is perfectly acceptable. So is "I don't know.")

I would no longer be willing to have sex with men.

4) What's the farthest you've gone with a member of the same sex?

I was married to a woman for over a quarter century and we had three kids together.

5) What's the farthest you would be willing to go? (Again, uncertainty is welcome.)

I would love to be married again, if I find a suitable partner.

6) Say there's a gun to your head, and you're told to put a one-word label on your sexuality. What is it? ("I guess I would just have to get shot" is not an acceptable answer; it's a cop-out. Something like "questioning" is fine.)

Lesbian.

7) And now the gun's gone. Would you still use that label? Would you add a caveat, an addendum, a word of explanation? Would you ditch the label altogether?

Lesbian.

8) Anything else interesting that you want to add?

Being a lesbian is a core part of my identity. I'm not bisexual just because I've had sex with men and am sometimes attracted to them. I think McGreevey is a good example of a man in a similar position. He was able to relate sexually to women but he's truly gay. I dislike the "everybody's bi" assumption so frequent on lj.

[From: sailorptah.livejournal.com]

Being a lesbian is a core part of my identity. I'm not bisexual just because I've had sex with men and am sometimes attracted to them. I think McGreevey is a good example of a man in a similar position. He was able to relate sexually to women but he's truly gay. I dislike the "everybody's bi" assumption so frequent on lj.

Hear hear! I'm the same way (except that I haven't related sexually to men that much, for which I am grateful).

The "everybody's bi" assumption is just as limiting as "everybody must be straight or gay". (The Kinsey scale is slightly better, but still very limited. Since it's based on experience, it catches bi or gay people who identify as straight due to social pressure; but it doesn't account for straight people who have experimented, or gay people who have pretended to be straight because of the social pressure, or any number of other factors....)

I would love to be married again, if I find a suitable partner.

With you there. Good luck!

[From: madmogs.livejournal.com]

Here via metafandom

1) What is your gender identity? How about your biological sex?
Female; female

2) What's the farthest you've gone, romantically and/or sexually, with a member of the opposite sex
Kissing with tongue (it freaked me out)

3) What's the farthest you would be willing to go? I honestly have no idea. Farthest indicates that it's a straight line progression from kissing up to, I dunno, BDSM or scat. I'd happily (oh yes) do bondage; but whether I'd actually have sex or not is rather more in doubt.

4) What's the farthest you've gone with a member of the same sex?
Absolutely nowhere

5) What's the farthest you would be willing to go? See 3 above, though including more skin contact and touching than I'd be comfortable with from a man.

6) asexual.

7) Not really asexual, but not really anything else either. While I like the idea of sex and can even fantasise about it after a fashion, the idea of actually having sex myself is a weird and slightly squicky turn-off.

8) Given my total lack of practical experience all the above is strictly theoretical. Also, I'm old enough (thirties) that I should reasonably be expected to have worked it out by now.

[From: sailorptah.livejournal.com]

The 40-Year-Old Virgin aside, yeah, I understand where you're coming from.

Just as there's a whole complicated set of interactions between "desiring women" and "desiring men", there's a whole new dimension when you throw in the question of "desiring" and "not desiring". And I don't think the vocabulary is nearly developed enough to cover it yet.

Could "mildly sexual" be a fair description of you? (I would say "aflexible", following the pattern of "homoflexible" and "heteroflexible", but it sounds like it should mean "not flexible at all".)

Also, can I ask if you have emotionally deep connections with people? I mean, I figure you have friends, but does the idea of settling down and growing old with someone sound appealing to you, even in a nonsexual way? Or don't you feel that that's something you need?

(As always, "I'm not sure" is perfectly fine.)

[From: mandy-croyance.livejournal.com]

1) What is your gender identity? How about your biological sex?

Female; female

2) What's the farthest you've gone, romantically and/or sexually, with a member of the opposite sex (from the one with which you identify)?

Making out with some light petting. I haven't found someone worth going beyond that yet.

3) What's the farthest you would be willing to go? ("I know I would do P, I think I would do Q, and I'm not sure if I would do R" is perfectly acceptable. So is "I don't know.")

Quite a bit, lol. Normal, hetero sex for sure, but probably some of the more unusual stuff too. For example, I think I would like to try pegging if I was involved with a partner who was willing to go there with me.

4) What's the farthest you've gone with a member of the same sex?

I could say kissing and groping too, but it was never serious. It wasn't for the entertainment of anyone except ourselves but there was nothing sexual in it either.

5) What's the farthest you would be willing to go? (Again, uncertainty is welcome.)

I have no idea. I think that I might be quite a bit like Jim McGreevey in that I might have chemistry with women and who knows, I might even be able to convince myself into a sexual relationship with one, but it would probably be short-lived and in disaster for everyone involved.

6) Say there's a gun to your head, and you're told to put a one-word label on your sexuality. What is it? ("I guess I would just have to get shot" is not an acceptable answer; it's a cop-out. Something like "questioning" is fine.)

Straight.

7) And now the gun's gone. Would you still use that label? Would you add a caveat, an addendum, a word of explanation? Would you ditch the label altogether?

Still straight; it's probably not 100% static but I'm hesitant to choose a different label because, any which way you slice it, I'm primarily interested in men. There are women I've been attracted to but it's mostly an emotional and not physical attraction; I've certainly not felt anything yet worth acting on. I'm not bisexual and certainly not pan- or omni-sexual. Heteroflexible even seems too go far to me. I'm still trying to figure this shit out, though, so... Who knows?

8) Anything else interesting that you want to add?

I think the way sexuality works differs between the genders as well. Physiologically, I mean. There was a study conducted where they had members of both sexes (forgive the out-dated gender binary) watch pornography and monitored their physiological response. The researchers observed that male test subjects were primarily aroused only by the pornographic material shown which was consistent with their self-identified sexuality. Women, on the other hand, were typically sexually aroused by all material regardless of their orientation.

Now, perhaps that means nothing, but to me it makes an important distinction. It doesn't mean all women are omnisexual, but it certainly suggests that women might have a easier time responding physically to various partners therefore may be more prone to having more fluid sexualities than men.

[From: mandy-croyance.livejournal.com]

As a addendum, I'm primarily interested in effeminate boys and feel more of an attraction toward slightly masculine women. So. Take that as you will, lol.

[From: tacky-tramp.livejournal.com]

1) Female, female.

2) I find it interesting that you define sex and romance in terms of distance, as though, for example, penis-in-vagina is somehow "farther" than penis-in-mouth. I'm sure you don't intend it this way, but that kind of framing strikes me as too focused on penetration -- very masculinist.

Some of the things I have done with bio/gender-identified men: Holding hands, kissing, making out, heavy petting, mutual masturbation, simultaneous masturbation, fellatio, cunnilingus, BDSM, PIV intercourse, pegging, sensual massage; crushes, casual sex, dating, long-term relationships, love.

3) Other acts I would be willing to perform with a bio/gender-identified man: Anything that felt good. :)

4) Some of the things I have done with bio/gender-identified women: Holding hands, kissing, making out, heavy petting, mutual masturbation, cunnilingus, BDSM; crushes, casual sex, long-term relationships (sort of), love.

5) Acts I would be willing to perform with a bio/gender-identified woman: Anything that felt good. :)

6) Depends why the gun-holder is asking. I use different labels for different audiences. Sometimes I ID as "bisexual," other times I identify as "queer."

7) Same as above.

8) I find it really interesting when people who have sexual and romantic histories with multiple genders/biosexes ID as "gay" or "straight." It seems to imply to me that the bits outside the label were invalid. How is McGreevy "gay" if he had romantic and sexual chemistry with both men and women? Why does he feel compelled to choose that label over "bi" or "queer" or something else?

[From: sailorptah.livejournal.com]

I find it interesting that you define sex and romance in terms of distance, as though, for example, penis-in-vagina is somehow "farther" than penis-in-mouth.

I never made any distinctions based on what penetrates where, but wouldn't you agree that (for example) heavy petting is more sexually intimate than kissing alone?

I find it really interesting when people who have sexual and romantic histories with multiple genders/biosexes ID as "gay" or "straight."

Sexual history does not necessarily correlate with sexuality. People are not asexual up until they have their first relationship.

In my case (and the cases of many people who go through a "bicurious" phase before settling on "straight") it was "tried it, didn't like it." In McGreevey's case, he had chemistry with women, but not enough to make him happy in a committed relationship to one. He tried to do it anyway, and it took so much mental energy that he had a nervous breakdown.

I don't think his IDing as gay invalidates his love for them, any more than my IDing as gay erases the close emotional relationships I have had with guys. But het sex was clearly not right for him, as it wouldn't be for me.

[From: kattahj.livejournal.com]

1) What is your gender identity? How about your biological sex?
I'm a biological woman and identify as such, though I see myself as fairly androgyn in personality.

2) What's the farthest you've gone, romantically and/or sexually, with a member of the opposite sex (from the one with which you identify)?
Tongue kissing and chest-fondling with a boyfriend who lasted about a week. Lots of crushes on movie stars and real guys out of reach, particularly in my teen years.

3) What's the farthest you would be willing to go? ("I know I would do P, I think I would do Q, and I'm not sure if I would do R" is perfectly acceptable. So is "I don't know.")
About that far, if it's a nice guy and he's a better kisser than the boy of question #1. I'm very nervous about the thought of sex with a man, but if I really really liked him, maybe. Would in that case also be open to something relationship-like.

4) What's the farthest you've gone with a member of the same sex?
Sex using hands, d:o with other women watching, light BDSM, all as one-night-stands. Chaster relationships (kissing, fondling) that have lasted a few dates. Somewhat less frequent crushes on movie stars, though still a bunch on real women (only one of which I actually had almost-sex with).

5) What's the farthest you would be willing to go? (Again, uncertainty is welcome.)
I'd like to have oral at some point. Not sure about toys, but I'd be willing to try - I don't suppose a woman would be as upset as a man by "ugh, no, take it out!" If I really liked her, I'd be open to something relationship-like.

6) Say there's a gun to your head, and you're told to put a one-word label on your sexuality. What is it? ("I guess I would just have to get shot" is not an acceptable answer; it's a cop-out. Something like "questioning" is fine.)
"Bisexual", I guess.

7) And now the gun's gone. Would you still use that label? Would you add a caveat, an addendum, a word of explanation? Would you ditch the label altogether?
I've been known to call myself "bisexual" and "queer". I'd like it if we could scrap those "quaint little categories," but that's not gonna happen any time soon, and I'd rather stick to the label than let people slap another one on me.

8) Oh, and I forgot - I get more romantically disposed around ovulation time too, but for me it's not gender-based. Last time, I found myself making steamy daydreams about both America Ferrera and Juan Diego Botto (though not together).

[From: sailorptah.livejournal.com]

I'd like it if we could scrap those "quaint little categories," but that's not gonna happen any time soon, and I'd rather stick to the label than let people slap another one on me.

I don't think we should scrap the idea of categories altogether, because people are different, sexuality-wise, and it wouldn't be fair to anyone to pretend that there is no differentiation.

But I definitely don't think anyone should be limited to the existing categories. I happen to fit into one of them, but if you don't, more power to you!

I get more romantically disposed around ovulation time too, but for me it's not gender-based.

That's still something, though. (And America Ferrara is hot =3)

[From: sailorptah.livejournal.com]

Basically, I have no issue with the idea of same-sex sex.

Hm. It's interesting to me that you put it this way, because I would say I "have no issue with the idea of opposite-sex sex".

Still, in practice I don't personally want to do it - and not because there are "mental blocks" affecting this. (In terms of "what my mother wants", not to mention "what society expects", there's absolutely no barrier to het sex.)

So you might realize that's your situation if you ever do experiment that far. A couple of straight-but-not-narrow people have described similar realizations here already.

Or, y'know, you might just be all about the high standards. Which is fine. In many ways, it's better than having low standards =3